Last Sunday, Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was interviewed by Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News in a heated discussion that climaxed when the Labour MP accused the presenter of sexism.
On the subject of Brexit, Dermot had asked if, on a recent trip to Brussels, Emily had met with her ‘would-be counterparts’ in France and Germany. Emily said she hadn’t. Dermot asked if she had at least called the French Foreign Minister. She said that meetings were in the process of being set-up. Then came the killer question: ‘Do you know who he is?’
‘Don’t start pub quizzing me, Dermot,’ she replied, ‘don’t start pub quizzing me.’
‘Well, he’s the French Foreign Minister,’ the presenter responded, ‘do you know his name?’
‘No,’ said Emily. ‘And I’m not going to start answering questions on this.’
There followed an awkward moment of laughter before Emily explained she was upset by Dermot’s attitude, asking if he ever took a similar line of questioning with MPs like David Davis and Boris Johnson. She went on to suggest they talk about more serious subjects, such as Syria and North Korea.
‘Well, what about the South Korean President,’ Dermot replied, ‘if you want to talk about North Korea, do you know the name of the South Korean President?’
You can see how the conversation went…
It was the end of the interview, however, that subsequently caused the most controversy. On the subject of anti-Semitism in the Labour party, Emily said that there was always ‘more to be done’ to deal with societal issues like anti-Semitism, racism and sexism. ‘And sometimes when it comes to sexism, some Sky presenters need to look at themselves too…’ she concluded.
A stunned moment of silence ensued. Emily reiterated that she had found Dermot’s ‘pub quiz’ questions upsetting and ‘patronising’.
‘Let me address this…’ Dermot replied. ‘You are the Shadow Foreign Secretary, and this was about the French Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault, who Boris Johnson has met now several times…’
Emily said she wanted to continue the conversation off-air and the interview ended. So an obvious question arises from this: was Emily Thornberry right to accuse Dermot Murnaghan of sexism?
In my opinion, no, she wasn’t.
We all know what it’s like to be called up on something we don’t know. It’s infuriating. Add lights, cameras and a Sunday morning’s worth of Britons watching us into the mix, and it must be excruciating.
In such a situation, where not only our reputation is at stake, but that of our political party’s, it’s probable we too would do what we could to try to discredit our opponent. And if we felt that we were being unfairly treated, and that someone else – a man – in our position would never have found themselves similarly under fire, we might want to point this out. All this makes sense. However, before we make an outright accusation of sexism on live TV, some fundamental pointers need to be established.
Firstly, was it actually an unfair question?
In such a debate, an unfair question could be defined as one which we had no chance of knowing the answer to (it being too obscure); one which lay beyond our expertise or remit; one which was irrelevant; one which was unclear.
If we look at the case in point, was it unreasonable, obscure, irrelevant, unclear or beyond the remit of a politician who works in foreign affairs, to ask if she knew the name of the French Foreign Minister with whom she’d just said she was trying to arrange a meeting? I think inarguably, it wasn’t. In fact, it would be desirable for her to know; she is Shadow Brexit Secretary and one would imagine negotiations surrounding Brexit will very much have to involve France.
For argument’s sake, however, let’s say it was a sort of ‘trivial’ question. For a claim of sexism to stand, we’d have to argue that such questions would not be asked of a man. Looking again at this instance: have male MPs ever come a copper over ‘trivial’ questions before?
Yes.
To give a few examples, in the lead-up to the London Mayor elections in April, Labour candidate Sadiq Khan was asked by the BBC’s Norman Smith to list the Northern Line underground stops in sequence, and then name the football team that played at Selhurst Park (all of which he could). In an interview with ITV’s Good Morning in 2014, Ed Miliband was asked if he knew how much the average household spent on a weekly shop (which he didn’t). And in 2013, Boris Johnson was asked by Jeremy Paxman that age-old question, whether he knew the price of a pint of milk, which he also didn’t (‘So what?’ he responded).
No one is expecting Emily to know about these examples off-hand. But if you are going to suggest that trivia-like questions are being asked of you, solely because you are a woman, it would be important to establish first that such questions would not be asked of your male counterparts in similar circumstances.
The final point to address here is the very nature of an interview. If you agree to an interview – especially one televised live – you must be prepared for questions. You may not like all of them, you may not know the answer to all of them, but you must at least be prepared for them. Emily Thornberry did not like the French Foreign Minister question, because she hadn’t prepared for it and did not know the answer. If she had known it, I doubt she would still have come to the conclusion it was a sexist question; having gained an advantage over her opponent, she would have moved on.
Sexism is a global issue. Every instance, big or small, should be brought to the fore and combated. One need only look at sites such as everydaysexism.com to get an idea of just how many instances there are on a daily basis – involving not just women but, horrifyingly, children too.
But when a woman makes an accusation of sexism merely because a man has shown her up, it becomes problematic. Problematic because sexism is a serious issue and using it as a trump card in an argument risks undermining what it stands for: prejudice and discrimination against women. It risks trivialising the very word, making it ever harder for women and girls who are genuinely on the receiving end of it to speak out and be heard...
If Emily Thornberry had really wanted to outdo Dermot Murnaghan she should have turned the questioning back on him. ‘Name all the people responsible for broadcasting this show,’ she could have said. ‘The researchers providing you the names of all these foreign dignitaries, in particular...’
Then she would have demonstrated what any debate between a man and woman ought to be in the year 2016 – a battle of minds, not sexes.
Follow Edwina Langley on Twitter @EdwinaLangley